Curse

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Since Gaile has suggested that they would welcome comments on henchmen skill updates, I thought I would get a suggestion thread going. Heres my ideas. Please note that these suggestions are specifically for HM. Henchmen are completely fine as they are for NM and dont need any changes.

Mhenlo and other healing monks:

[skill]orison of healing[/skill][skill]words of comfort[/skill][skill]dwayna's kiss[/skill][skill]light of deliverance[/skill][skill]signet of rejuvenation[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]renew life[/skill]

Khim

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]zealous benediction[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]spirit bond[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]renew life[/skill]

Lina

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]shielding hands[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]shield of regeneration[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill]

I would suggest that these 3 monks are made available as henchmen in every 8 man outpost in the game for HM.

Sogolon

[skill]signet of synergy[/skill][skill]aria of restoration[/skill][skill]ballad of restoration[/skill][skill]cautery signet[/skill][skill]aria of zeal[/skill][skill]hexbreaker aria[/skill][skill]leader's comfort[/skill][skill]signet of return[/skill]

Herta and all earth henchmen

[skill]Ebon Hawk[/skill][skill]stoning[/skill][skill]glowstone[/skill][skill]sandstorm[/skill][skill]ward against melee[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]earth attunement[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Cynn - Specifically for HM

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Mark of rodgort[/skill][skill]searing heat[/skill][skill]glyph of lesser energy[/skill][skill]fire attunement[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Domination Henchmen No one in particular, just a generic build that would be great for domination hench

[skill]cry of frustration[/skill][skill]energy burn[/skill][skill]energy surge[/skill][skill]backfire[/skill][skill]empathy[/skill][skill]diversion[/skill][skill]drain enchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Interuption Henchman This is an idea to make those elly and rit bosses a lot easier to beat.

[skill]power spike[/skill][skill]power leak[/skill][skill]power drain[/skill][skill]signet of humility[/skill][skill]migraine[/skill][skill]frustration[/skill][skill]drain enchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Ranger Hench Two possible builds that would be nice to have on ranger hench:

[skill]barrage[/skill][skill]marauder's shot[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]crossfire[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]distracting shot[/skill][skill]throw dirt[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

[skill]burning arrow[/skill][skill]screaming shot[/skill][skill]hunter's shot[/skill][skill]crossfire[/skill][skill]determined shot[/skill][skill]savage shot[/skill][skill]healing spring[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

I will add more Ideas as I make them, feel free to post your own.

Puebert · May 28, 2007, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Might wanna say, "NF only", because it kinda makes sense for the skills to be core unless you state a specific chapter.

You really like [skill=text]Dismiss Condition[/skill] don't you? :P

Overall, its better than what they currently have. :/

Luna Star · May 28, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

The problem is that you need to suggest skills that are for that chapter, you can put core+chapter skills, can't use skills from factions for nightfall or prophecies and vice versa.

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Well, seeing that the suggestions are primarily for HM, I dont really care about using cross campaign skills. This is what I would use on my heroes, and since I cant use 7 of them now, I would like to see equally usefull builds on the henchmen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

You really like [skill=text]Dismiss Condition[/skill] don't you? :P

Well its one skill that they actually use really well. Mhenlo really wouldnt need it, but there arent any other healing skills that I would rather have. Channeling would be nice on each one too, but Im sure that will never happen.

arcanemacabre · May 28, 2007, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Well, seeing that the suggestions are primarily for HM, I dont really care about using cross campaign skills. This is what I would use on my heroes, and since I cant use 7 of them now, I would like to see equally usefull builds on the henchmen.

Point is, continuity needs to remain - core + campaign skills only.

Also, as great of an idea as this is, this really should be in Sardelac, I would think.

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Point is, continuity needs to remain - core + campaign skills only.

Well my point is that WoH doesnt quite cut it for healing in HM for any campain, neither do the terrible healer bars in Factions with 3 10e spammable skills.

SerenitySilverstar · May 28, 2007, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Hi Bhavv

Interesting to hear. We were discussing this earlier this month in my "Henchmen Hardmode Skill Challenge" thread:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10154009

But it petered out. Good to see Gaile welcomes the discussion.

I'll bring up one of my rejigged builds from there, as part of getting this thread's ball rolling. My rules were:

1) Skills can only come from Core and Campaign Specific for the henchmen (eg: Odurra can only use Core and Nightfall Mesmer skills).

2) If you can build an effective skill set for a Guild Wars wide used Henchman (eg: Mehnlo) with JUST Core skills, extra kudos!

3) You have all 8 skill slots to utilize.

4) An Elite is not a prerequisite, but if you DO use one, it can't be too over powered in the interests of balance (eg: Devona can't have "Dwarven Hammer Stance").

5) Balance is the key. The skill set can't be so overpowered that it negates all need to use PUGs/Heroes.

6) Each Henchman can only be their core profession, no secondaries.

Henchman: Odurra
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: (Level 20) Cry of Frustration, Empathy, Ether Feast, Leech Signet, Shatter Hex, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
[skill]Cry of Frustration[/skill] [skill]Empathy[/skill] [skill]Shatter Enchantment[/skill] [skill]Mantra of Concentration[/skill] [skill]Leech Signet[/skill] [skill]Energy Surge[/skill] [skill]Ether Phantom[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Serenity, I am not abiding to rules that make no sense. The simple fact is that henchmen should be able to have equal skillbars to players / heroes, at least in HM.

In NM, all the henchmen are fine and can be kept as they are, but my specific interest is to suggest ideas to make henchmen suitable for HM.

SerenitySilverstar · May 28, 2007, 04:24 AM // 04:24

How can they not make sense? Odurra, for example, has never been to Cantha or Tyria, ergo only has access to skills from Elona and "Core".

It would be like if you or I only owned Nightfall, and not the other two chapters.

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

How can they not make sense?

It doesnt make sense to restrict skills by campain for HM because imho it is simply not possible to play the game in HM without using cross campiagn skills.

I urge you to try and beat all the missions in tryria on HM using just the henchmen, and only using Proph/core skills on any character. Maybe then you will see the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

bhavv, you don't make, nor can you change the rules

And did the rules originally say that enemies could attack, move and cast spells 50% faster? If the rules were allowed to be tweaked for enemies on HM then I cant see why they cant be for henchmen.

It is not against the rules to make a Searing Flames elementalist or a Zealous Benediction monk and play those in Prophecies or Cantha, so I dont see why henchmen are still limited to skill bars that simply do not work in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

but surely we can come up with something better than what they have now...

Well why dont you then? This is a suggestion, just as asking for 7 heroes was, there is nothing against the rules for making suggestions to make the game better for everyone. Everyone doubted, and it has been confimed that 7 heroes will not be allowed in the game, but there are still many players that would like to see this feature added, just as much as im sure they would appreciate these skill changes on henchmen. If we cant have 7 heroes, then at least make henchmen as good as them.

arcanemacabre · May 28, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

bhavv, you don't make, nor can you change the rules, sorry to say. I seriously doubt Anet would allow the henchmen to carry skills from other chapters they're not exclusive to. If you choose to ignore that, all of this is in vain.

Just imagine the henchmen as other players that only own that one campaign. how would you direct them to build their bar (of course, also bearing in mind they can't have secondaries)? It's restrictive, but surely we can come up with something better than what they have now...

SerenitySilverstar · May 28, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It doesnt make sense to restrict skills by campain for HM because imho it is simply not possible to play the game in HM without using cross campiagn skills.

The Devs are very adamant that this game, and its skills, are all about BALANCE.

Say it with me. BALANCE.

Luna Star · May 28, 2007, 04:46 AM // 04:46

This for Prophecies, healer
[skill]orison of healing[/skill] [skill]Healing Seed[/skill] [skill]Dwayna's kiss[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]word of healing[/skill] [skill]restore life[/skill]

Prophecies Protection:
[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] [skill]shielding hands[/skill] [skill]Protective spirit[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]restore condition[/skill] [skill]aegis[/skill] [skill]rebirth[/skill]

Factions, healer:
[skill]orison of healing[/skill] [skill]Healing Seed[/skill] [skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Jamei's Gaze[/skill] [skill]healing light[/skill] or [skill]blessed light[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Factions, Protection:
[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] [skill]shielding hands[/skill] [skill]Protective spirit[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Shield of Regeneration[/skill] [skill]aegis[/skill] [skill]rebirth[/skill]

Nightfall, Healer:
[skill]orison of healing[/skill] [skill]Healing Seed[/skill] [skill]words of comfort[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Light of Deliverance[/skill] [skill]Renew Life[/skill]

Nightfall, Protection:
[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill] [skill]shielding hands[/skill] [skill]Protective spirit[/skill] [skill]Mend Ailment[/skill] [skill]Holy Veil[/skill] [skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill] [skill]aegis[/skill] [skill]rebirth[/skill]

Little Thom:
[skill]frenzy[/skill] [skill]healing signet[/skill]

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

The Devs are very adamant that this game, and its skills, are all about BALANCE.

Say it with me. BALANCE.

And? The skills are *Supposedly* all balanced, if they werent then they would be nerfed or not included in the game. Unfortunately, imo the WoH and RC builds luna suggested would not be good enough for HM in tyria on a 2 monk backline, for completing every mission and vanquishing every area, which is the problem. To BALANCE HM and to make it possible to beat, you NEED cross campain skills.

Have you even tried playing the game in HM? I seriously doubt that you have from your comment on balancing the game.

arcanemacabre · May 28, 2007, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It doesnt make sense to restrict skills by campain for HM because imho it is simply not possible to play the game in HM without using cross campiagn skills.

I urge you to try and beat all the missions in tryria on HM using just the henchmen, and only using Proph/core skills on any character. Maybe then you will see the point.

Luckily henchmen are not our only options. There are other players, ya know. A group of 8 players with only prophecies + cors skills will surely have no problem beating everything in Prophecies in HM. Can't get a full team? No problem, Anet will then urge you to purchase Nightfall (as companies do - suggesting more of their products) and make some hero + henchie teams. Then, if you're good enough (it is Hard mode, after all), you will be able to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

And did the rules originally say that enemies could attack, move and cast spells 50% faster? If the rules were allowed to be tweaked for enemies on HM then I cant see why they cant be for henchmen.

First of all, you're compairing enemy PvE monsters with allied characters that are supposed to mimic and replace other real people. Of course the monsters are going to be stronger, faster - but they're also not allowed skills from other campaigns! They need to be tougher, but even they are bound by that rule, so we're left with the increase in speed, rather than diversity in skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

It is not against the rules to make a Searing Flames elementalist or a Zealous Benediction monk and play those in Prophecies or Cantha, so I dont see why henchmen are still limited to skill bars that simply do not work in HM.

Right, we can only do that because we are players that happen to own those campaigns. We're not bound by that rule, we're bound by what we can afford. The henchies need to be bound by the rule, since they aren't buying campaigns anytime soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Well why dont you then? This is a suggestion, just as asking for 7 heroes was, there is nothing against the rules for making suggestions to make the game better for everyone. Everyone doubted, and it has been confimed that 7 heroes will not be allowed in the game, but there are still many players that would like to see this feature added, just as much as im sure they would appreciate these skill changes on henchmen. If we cant have 7 heroes, then make henchmen as good as them.

I disagree about making henchmen as good as heroes. That's the point to the heroes in the first place. After all, they take drops like henchmen, but we still have to provide all their gear. If the henchmen are just as good, why bother playing with heroes ever again - and why bother buying stuff for them? Regardless, I do agree with making them better, and I will come up with some ideas on my own since I really like this idea. I just think it needs to be within those certain guidelines in order for the Devs to consider them at all.

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

A group of 8 players with only prophecies + cors skills will surely have no problem beating everything in Prophecies in HM.

Really? Then how come that every time I took a WoH/healing breeze human monk with only prophecies into HM missions we ended up dying and failing the mission untill he quit? And that after I took players with the cross campaign skill sets I suggested we managed to complete it with no problems? he mission I quote is Sanctum Cay which is full of mass AoE damage, and is literally screaming for LoD to be used as the elite of choice.

You learn new things in GW everyday, and it was only last week that I learnt that I will no longer accept a PuG for HM that cannot play the build, or a build close enough to the one I specify. Its not only on monks, it applies to builds like the W/R I had earlier today for a HM mission with troll ungent and dolyak signet. I never use tanks in HM and it goes completely fine. I am not a harsh player, I make suggestions to those that join my group for what builds they should use and no more. If they cant play them then I suggest they obtain those skills before playing HM, which usually ends up with insults being thrown at me for kicking them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna Star

Little Thom:
[skill]frenzy[/skill] [skill]healing signet[/skill]

TY so much for that, I really needed a laugh. I think warrior hench just need removing from the game altogher anyway.

arcanemacabre · May 28, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Really? Then how come that every time I took a WoH/healing breeze human monk with only prophecies into HM missions we ended up dying and failing the mission untill he quit? And that after I took players with the cross campaign skill sets I suggested we managed to complete it with no problems? he mission I quote is Sanctum Cay which is full of mass AoE damage, and is literally screaming for LoD to be used as the elite of choice.

Heal Party instead of Healing Breeze. There, problem solved. (well that and any number of other factors like them or any and everyone else in the party doing stupid things can cause failure)

Zinger314 · May 28, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Gaile was being facetious about the idea for suggestions for new henchman skillbars.

Any henchmen improvements which would make them on an equal skillbar and capability to a somewhat normal player would "disincent someone from playing in a party with other people." (that being Gaile's exact quote against the use of 7 Heroes)

So any henchman change is inherently futile. Gaile likes conga. Henchmen don't conga. Therefore, Gaile doesn't like Henchmen.

bhavv · May 28, 2007, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Gaile was being facetious about the idea for suggestions for new henchman skillbars.

True enough now that I went back and read the post beyond the first line, but correct me if im wrong, they did state when HM was intoduced that it was being balanced to be henchable, which it clearly isnt.

I am aware that the builds I am suggesting will never make it onto henchmen, just as I am aware we will never get 7 heroes, I am just pointing what does work in HM. Well, except for my monk ideas as they dont have channeling

But in all seriousness, I doubt that simply reskilling henchmen to something even slightly more usefull is a lot les demanding on the development team then it was to make all the other changes they have.

Anyway, my bedtime now.

Marverick · May 28, 2007, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Give Kihm Shield of Regeneration as well, she doesn't use Zealous Benediction correctly.

Get rid of [skill]Orison of Healing[/skill] from all the healer henchies, they spam that all day long and it sucks.

I don't see how any healer can exist without [skill]Dwayna's Kiss[/skill]. In Factions give them [skill]Healing Whisper[/skill] if Prophecies skills aren't available, as henchies like to clump the effect will almost always be nonexistant.